| 13:30 : kushal |
#startclass
|
| 13:30 : callowidealist |
Jitendra Kumar Tripathi
|
| 13:30 : kushal |
Roll call
|
| 13:30 : jasonbraganza |
Jason Braganza
|
| 13:30 : newrg |
Rajat Gupta
|
| 13:30 : devesh_verma |
Devesh Verma
|
| 13:30 : GeekyShacklebolt |
Shiva Saxena
|
| 13:30 : prodyte |
pawan kumar
|
| 13:30 : kushal |
Kushal Das
|
| 13:30 : mzeeqazi |
Muhammad Zeeshan Qazi
|
| 13:30 : RJ722 |
Rahul Jha
|
| 13:30 : pooja |
pooja sulakhe
|
| 13:30 : ash_mishra |
Ashish Kumar Mishra
|
| 13:30 : rishibit |
Rishikesh Bamdale
|
| 13:30 : ntoll |
Nicholas Tollervey
|
| 13:30 : storymode_7 |
Mayank Singhal
|
| 13:30 : priyankasaggu119 |
Priyanka Saggu
|
| 13:30 : vshuklajr |
Vivek Shukla
|
| 13:30 : pr97 |
Priyanka Sharma
|
| 13:30 : adityad97 |
Aditya Deshpande
|
| 13:30 : meanjeet |
Manjeet Mehta
|
| 13:30 : bhavin192 |
Bhavin Gandhi
|
| 13:30 : bismi |
Janifa M
|
| 13:30 : sourabhdeshmukh |
sourabh deshmukh
|
| 13:30 : kps_ |
Karan Pratap
|
| 13:30 : akshayg96 |
Akshay Gaikwad
|
| 13:30 : Casper_01 |
Mayur khomane
|
| 13:30 : utkarsh2102 |
Utkarsh Gupta
|
| 13:30 : thegeekybong |
Prajit Mukherjee
|
| 13:30 : VirtualRcoder |
Shubham Sharma
|
| 13:30 : Guest97138 |
Vamsi Krishna
|
| 13:30 : anwesha |
Anwesha Das
|
| 13:30 : snandi__ |
Shamik Nandi
|
| 13:30 : ratankulshreshth |
Ratan Kulshreshtha
|
| 13:30 : AdityaPatil |
Aditya Patil
|
| 13:30 : codejacker |
Ankur Vishwakarma
|
| 13:30 : Abhi_ |
Abhishek Kedia
|
| 13:30 : sjha2048 |
sahil
|
| 13:30 : prarora98 |
Prateek Arora
|
| 13:30 : saptaks |
Saptak Sengupta
|
| 13:30 : kvy |
kumar vipin yadav
|
| 13:30 : D1nz |
Dinesh Bypilla
|
| 13:30 : olajayi_ |
olajayi_
|
| 13:30 : yurii |
yurii pylypchuk
|
| 13:30 : sourabh1031 |
Sourabh Pruthi
|
| 13:30 : inkaps |
Nupur Kapur
|
| 13:30 : AbdulRaheem |
Abdul Raheem
|
| 13:30 : man-jain |
Manank Patni
|
| 13:30 : aryan13 |
aryan tripathi
|
| 13:30 : codekamat |
Sachin
|
| 13:30 : prokbird |
tabrez khan
|
| 13:30 : pradhvan |
Pradhvan Bisht
|
| 13:30 : cypher_ |
Naman Sharma
|
| 13:30 : prabhu |
Prabhu Sharan Singh
|
| 13:30 : schubisu[m] |
Robin Shubert
|
| 13:30 : avik |
Avik Mukherjee
|
| 13:30 : sandeepK |
Sandeep Kumar Choudhary
|
| 13:30 : Rakshit__ |
Rakshit Airani
|
| 13:31 : jaydeep |
Jaydeep Borkar
|
| 13:31 : rohanvivek |
Rohan vivek
|
| 13:31 : techytushar |
Tushar Mittal
|
| 13:31 : farhan |
farhan shaikh
|
| 13:31 : kushal |
clearqueue
|
| 13:31 : |
Okay
|
| 13:32 : Ved_Sinha |
hello
|
| 13:32 : kushal |
ntoll, stage is yours.
|
| 13:32 : BhaveshSGupta[m] |
Bhavesh Gupta
|
| 13:32 : gamore |
Gajanan More
|
| 13:32 : Ved_Sinha |
Ved Sinha
|
| 13:32 : ananyo |
Ananyo Maiti
|
| 13:32 : ntoll |
First, many thanks for inviting me into your channel. It's a great honour for me to be talking with you.
|
| 13:33 : |
I'm old enough to still find it amazing that I can be sat here on my sofa in the UK while you are all (mainly) in India and elsewhere in the world. Technology can be such a force for good when it brings people together like this.
|
| 13:34 : |
So, my understanding is that you're all beginner Python programmers right..?
|
| 13:34 : kushal |
ntoll, We are yet to start Python :)
|
| 13:34 : ntoll |
Aha... so is this the very first IRC meeting?
|
| 13:34 : AbdulRaheem |
yeah
|
| 13:35 : vishalIRC |
has the session started?
|
| 13:35 : kushal |
ntoll, we are learning all the things before programming
|
| 13:35 : |
vishalIRC, yes.
|
| 13:35 : farhan |
yes new to python
|
| 13:35 : ntoll |
Aha, understood... so that's the important details like finding your way around Linux, using IRC, where to find docs etc...
|
| 13:36 : kushal |
ntoll, Correct
|
| 13:36 : meanjeet |
ntoll, yes
|
| 13:36 : kvy |
ntoll, right
|
| 13:36 : kps_ |
ntoll exactly
|
| 13:36 : ntoll |
Good... you folks are very lucky to have such wonderful and attentive teachers/mentors as kushal et al
|
| 13:36 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll, indeed.
|
| 13:36 : Abhi_ |
ntoll,ofcourse we are
|
| 13:36 : utkarsh2102 |
ntoll, could you please introduce yourself?
|
| 13:37 : kushal |
Please let the speaker speak.
|
| 13:37 : kps_ |
ntoll agreed
|
| 13:37 : codejacker |
ntoll, yes we are.
|
| 13:38 : kushal |
everyone please wait
|
| 13:38 : |
ntoll_, welcome back
|
| 13:39 : ntoll_ |
Hi... sorry about that... my internet connection has been dropping in and out all day.
|
| 13:39 : |
So I have a question for you to think about, and then perhaps we can try not to flood the channel ... ;-)
|
| 13:40 : kushal |
add: ntoll_
|
| 13:41 : ntoll_ |
What is the most important thing you should be thinking about when you write software? :-)
|
| 13:41 : jbixlow_ |
vipul kumar
|
| 13:42 : farhan |
logic & code
|
| 13:42 : ananyo |
That the software should be well understandable by others
|
| 13:42 : callowidealist |
Algorithm
|
| 13:42 : prokbird |
data structure
|
| 13:42 : kvy |
ntoll_, logics
|
| 13:42 : pradhvan |
code readability and logic
|
| 13:42 : AbdulRaheem |
ntoll_, logic and maths
|
| 13:42 : prabhu |
ntoll_, complexity and cleanliness of code
|
| 13:42 : gamore |
Software Architecture
|
| 13:42 : ntoll_ |
OK... so I'm getting a sense of what you're thinking... thank you for your replies
|
| 13:42 : j605 |
pseudocode close to python
|
| 13:42 : kps_ |
ntoll_, logic,readability and efficiency
|
| 13:42 : Rakshit__ |
that it does its job and performance
|
| 13:42 : sidntrivedi012 |
the aim of writing the software and its structure and algorithm
|
| 13:42 : rishibit |
ntoll_, Optimization & Redundancy
|
| 13:42 : RatanShreshtha |
What am I trying to do ?
|
| 13:42 : sourabh1031 |
It should be written (code) and documented property
|
| 13:43 : zappy |
code readablity and complexity
|
| 13:43 : jaydeep |
proper coding style
|
| 13:43 : priyankasaggu119 |
ntoll_, So it is like do I understand the problem properly.
|
| 13:43 : vara1 |
efficiency
|
| 13:43 : man-jain |
Am i am able to accomplish what i want with software.
|
| 13:43 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_, code should run fast
|
| 13:43 : codekamat |
User Interface
|
| 13:43 : homuncculus |
Vaibhav kaushik
|
| 13:43 : Abhi_ |
and size of program should be small
|
| 13:43 : poojaencoded |
Roll call :Pooja kumari singh
|
| 13:43 : ntoll_ |
OK... so let's unpack the various different answers you've given me
|
| 13:43 : BhaveshSGupta[m] |
ntoll_, the problem
|
| 13:44 : ntoll_ |
There are three broad categories, as far as I can tell, in your answers:
|
| 13:44 : meanjeet |
cost of development is also a important factor
|
| 13:44 : ntoll_ |
1) Matters of a technical nature (logic, architecture etc)
|
| 13:44 : |
2) Matters concerning yourself (do *I* understand what I'm supposed to be doing here?)
|
| 13:45 : jbixlow_ |
algortihms,data structure, readability, maintable
|
| 13:45 : ntoll_ |
3) Matters about the problem at hand (just what on earth is this software supposed to do?)
|
| 13:46 : |
I would say I listed these categories in the reverse order of importance, so matters about the problem at hand are most important, matters about yourself come second, and matters technical come third.
|
| 13:46 : |
this isn't just because of my value judgement (I'm not making this stuff up y'know)... ;-)
|
| 13:47 : |
Rather, for you to be able to create GOOD technical stuff, you need to be sure that YOU know and understand the PROBLEM AT HAND. I.e. the most fundamental dependency is knowing and understanding the problem at hand FIRST before you can get to how you organise yourself and then actually create a solution.
|
| 13:47 : |
Does that make sense?
|
| 13:48 : mzeeqazi |
indeed
|
| 13:48 : priyankasaggu119 |
yes
|
| 13:48 : RatanShreshtha |
yes
|
| 13:48 : ananyo |
ntoll_, yes
|
| 13:48 : vishalIRC |
yep
|
| 13:48 : Ved_Sinha |
yes
|
| 13:48 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_,yes
|
| 13:48 : chaitanya11 |
yeah
|
| 13:48 : callowidealist |
Yup
|
| 13:48 : ntoll_ |
Good... any questions at this point..?
|
| 13:48 : meanjeet |
yes
|
| 13:48 : pooja_s |
yes
|
| 13:48 : jbixlow_ |
yep
|
| 13:48 : man-jain |
Yes it does
|
| 13:48 : kvy |
yes
|
| 13:48 : AbdulRaheem |
yup
|
| 13:48 : sourabh1031 |
Yes
|
| 13:48 : Rakshit__ |
yea, so like requirement engineering ?
|
| 13:48 : inkaps |
yes
|
| 13:48 : storymode_7 |
Yes
|
| 13:48 : prokbird |
yes
|
| 13:48 : adityad97 |
Yes
|
| 13:49 : codejacker |
yes
|
| 13:49 : ntoll_ |
Rakshit__, sort of... I'll come onto what each step may involve in a moment
|
| 13:50 : |
OK... times up... for possible questions... I'll move on. :-)
|
| 13:50 : |
one of the very BEST bits about being able to write software is that you solve problems (hopefully) rather than create them (a possibility) ;-)
|
| 13:51 : prabhu |
ntoll_, like virus (create problems)?
|
| 13:51 : kps_ |
:)
|
| 13:51 : utkarsh2102 |
ntoll_, could you please explain the context of the above statement?^
|
| 13:52 : Abhi_ |
!
|
| 13:52 : kushal |
ntoll_, you can type next to take the questions
|
| 13:52 : |
next
|
| 13:52 : |
ntoll_, like that ^^
|
| 13:52 : prabhu |
!
|
| 13:52 : utkarsh2102 |
!
|
| 13:53 : Abhi_ |
in order to solve problems we need to have logical mind.. what can we do in order to make our mind think logically
|
| 13:53 : ntoll_ |
prabhu, possibly (although that depends upon who is writing the virus and who is the victim). Creating problems can come in all sorts of un-foreseen ways.
|
| 13:53 : sidntrivedi012 |
batul, i didn't raise a question.
|
| 13:53 : kps_ |
sidntrivedi012, bug
|
| 13:53 : kushal |
sidntrivedi012, ^^
|
| 13:53 : prabhu |
ntoll_, okay, got it.
|
| 13:53 : kushal |
Abhi_, please do not ask out of turn.
|
| 13:54 : ntoll_ |
next
|
| 13:54 : prabhu |
pass
|
| 13:54 : Abhi_ |
in order to solve problems we need to have logical mind.. what can we do in order to make our mind think logically
|
| 13:54 : ntoll_ |
next
|
| 13:54 : prabhu |
pass
|
| 13:54 : |
batul, pass
|
| 13:55 : ntoll_ |
Aha... OK... sorry... I'll keep track of the questions better. ;-) Abhi_ answer coming up in 2 seconds
|
| 13:57 : |
Abhi_, that depends what you mean by logic. I'd say "creative" is more important. It's true, that "logic" (and I mean in this case, being able to efficiently, clearly and [most importantly] SIMPLY organise your movement of thought around a problem) is important. However, logic is not enough without the imagination to be able to elegantly apply it to the problem. That also requires an understanding of the problem too.
|
| 13:57 : |
Does that help..?
|
| 13:57 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_, that's what i am asking is there anything i can do to bring in that creativity in me?
|
| 13:58 : ntoll_ |
So I hope we can see that there's a sort of hierarchy of things we need to concern ourselves with in order to make good software (i.e. code that solves rather than creates problems)
|
| 13:58 : |
Abhi_, hah... good question.
|
| 13:59 : philomath |
Roll call: Mohit Bansal
|
| 13:59 : ntoll_ |
Abhi_, practice, which will give you more experience. Try to read code written by others. I really like to pair-program since you can bounce ideas off each other
|
| 13:59 : |
I also do "cup of tea" programming... ;-)
|
| 13:59 : |
I learned this very early on in my career (I bet you can't tell I'm British can you?)
|
| 14:00 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_, "cup of tea programming" means? Easy?
|
| 14:00 : ntoll_ |
It's basically this: if you find yourself stuck, frustrated or struggling, go make a cup of tea.
|
| 14:00 : Abhi_ |
ohh..
|
| 14:00 : ntoll_ |
It's the change in context that's important.
|
| 14:00 : RJ722 |
!
|
| 14:01 : sidntrivedi012 |
!
|
| 14:01 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_, does solving aptitude problems make your mind think logically?
|
| 14:01 : sakshi |
hello
|
| 14:01 : kushal |
Abhi_, please give others chance to ask questions.
|
| 14:01 : Abhi_ |
kushal, this one's is my last
|
| 14:02 : |
*one's my last
|
| 14:02 : kushal |
Abhi_, feel free to requeue
|
| 14:02 : Abhi_ |
kushal, ok
|
| 14:02 : ntoll_ |
When you come back to your desk you have fresh eyes, see things slightly differently. Sometimes I don't make a cup of tea but go play my piano and try very hard to ignore the problem I have. Then, often while just playing music, the solution will come to me. Not sure why, perhaps when we're occupied with other stuff the problem is still "churning" at the back of our mind and the fresh (different) perspective of making a cup
|
| 14:02 : |
of tea, playing the paino, going for a walk (or whatever you find helps you) is all that's needed to unblock the problem. ;-)
|
| 14:02 : Abhi_ |
pass
|
| 14:02 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll_, true
|
| 14:03 : ntoll_ |
next
|
| 14:03 : sakshi |
is my message visible to everyone?
|
| 14:03 : Abhi_ |
!
|
| 14:03 : kps_ |
ntoll_, great
|
| 14:03 : pradhvan |
sakshi: yes
|
| 14:03 : utkarsh2102 |
pass.
|
| 14:03 : kushal |
sakshi, session is going on, please do not disturb.
|
| 14:03 : ntoll_ |
next
|
| 14:03 : codejacker |
ntoll, yes it happens:)
|
| 14:04 : RJ722 |
I was asking about "cup of tea" programming, it got answered, nevermind :)
|
| 14:04 : ntoll_ |
RJ722, cup of tea = whatever helps you remain focussed but NOT on the problem in hand. It's the context switch that's important. I also walk my dog (he gets well exercised) ;-)
|
| 14:04 : |
next
|
| 14:05 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll_, doesn't applying better logics imply applying efficient algorithms or making a good architecture.
|
| 14:05 : ntoll_ |
sidntrivedi012, OK... this is a complicated topic. But the nub of the matter is this:
|
| 14:06 : |
everyone has a different perspective on what "better" or "good" means. We're all different people and come to problems with different perspectives. For example...
|
| 14:07 : meanjeet |
!
|
| 14:08 : priyankasaggu119 |
!
|
| 14:08 : ntoll_ |
I once worked in a well known newspaper and the architects liked to have "clean" (well, their definition of clean) architecture, but this often got in the way of actually making stuff do useful things... ;-) Developers would often value efficiency of code ("look how many requests per second I can handle") when, in fact, the production website was only getting hit a couple of times a second anyway. Front-end devs valued
|
| 14:08 : |
beautiful looking interfaces (but would often create monster pages that took up huge amounts of network bandwidth)
|
| 14:09 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll_, got your point.
|
| 14:10 : ntoll_ |
So perhaps the most important skill you can learn as a developer/engineer is empathy: to try to see the point of view of your colleagues and users. Once you see what drives their point of view you will all (collectively) be in a better position to find the best compromise (and it'll definitely be a compromise) since so many people will have a stake in what you're building.
|
| 14:10 : |
I'd like to add...
|
| 14:11 : |
you'll also come across, ummm, how can I put it without sounding rude? umm... people who may be arrogant, self-centred, big headed, on a power trip... I'm sure you know the sort of person I mean.
|
| 14:12 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll_, yes,I understand.
|
| 14:12 : mzeeqazi |
!
|
| 14:12 : ntoll_ |
My advice is to avoid working with these people if at all possible. If you do have to work with them, my suggestion is to put all these sort of people on the same team, solving something that isn't *that* important so they're well out of the way of everyone else... ;-) and when they can't agree on what to do, it won't matter that much anyway. :-D
|
| 14:12 : sakshi |
!
|
| 14:13 : ntoll_ |
Hope that helps sidntrivedi012... you have to be a sort of ego-less person to write good software, if you see what I mean.
|
| 14:13 : |
anyway...
|
| 14:13 : |
next
|
| 14:13 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_, does solving aptitude problems make your mind think logically?
|
| 14:13 : ntoll_ |
no
|
| 14:13 : |
:-)
|
| 14:13 : Abhi_ |
ntoll_,ok
|
| 14:13 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll_, I will surely make it a point.
|
| 14:13 : Abhi_ |
Then how can we train it so?
|
| 14:14 : pradhvan |
Abhi_: please wait for your turn
|
| 14:14 : ntoll_ |
I wouldn't put so much focus on thinking logically... like learning to play a musical instrument, that skill will come over time with practice and experience. The far more important skill is to be the sort of person who can work with and learn from others (see my response to sidntrivedi012 above)
|
| 14:15 : |
...by practice and experience I mean you have learned from doing. Exercises and aptitude problems are perhaps fun, but they're no replacement for actually doing the real thing IYSWIM
|
| 14:15 : tenida |
ntoll_: Error: "..by" is not a valid command.
|
| 14:16 : sakshi |
1
|
| 14:16 : |
!
|
| 14:16 : ntoll_ |
It's like asking if practising scales and arpeggeios on a musical instrument will make you a better performer. They won't... but they;re a related skill.
|
| 14:16 : |
next
|
| 14:16 : meanjeet |
ntoll_, tell us more about your pet project drogulus. is it something related to decentralised internet ? why the name "drogulus" ?
|
| 14:17 : jaydeep |
!
|
| 14:17 : sidntrivedi012 |
!
|
| 14:17 : ntoll_ |
meanjeet, hahaha... OK... the best answer I can give is to point you to a blog post I wrote a few years ago: http://ntoll.org/article/ppdd
|
| 14:17 : vara1 |
!
|
| 14:18 : ntoll_ |
The drogulus is just "sleeping" at the moment, I've been busy doing micro:bit and Mu things in the meantime. However, I hope to get back to it soon. :-)
|
| 14:18 : |
next
|
| 14:18 : priyankasaggu119 |
ntoll, as we have many good models to solve all the three broadly stated matters, amongst what that Agile approach really means?
|
| 14:18 : ntoll_ |
OK... that's a really great question
|
| 14:19 : meanjeet |
ntoll_,Thanks will read this blog. :-)
|
| 14:19 : ntoll_ |
The most important aspect of your question is that you're not the first to encounter these categories of probem an others have suggested solutions, techniques you may want to try... (such as agile)
|
| 14:21 : |
The problem with such pre-existing techniques and solutions (like agile) is that it's easy to get bogged down trying to follow all the precepts or instructions. I think it more important if you find something that works for you, that you partake in the spirit of the technique and then adapt to your own needs... don't be afraid to change things around, so long as the changes help and continue the spirit of the technique.
|
| 14:21 : |
Specifically about "agile"...
|
| 14:22 : |
... people used to think making software was like making a bridge. You had to plan ahead in great detail. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to use a bridge that hadn't been properly planned, checked, tested and so on... ;-)
|
| 14:22 : tenida |
ntoll_: Error: ".." is not a valid command.
|
| 14:22 : priyankasaggu119 |
so basically considering all the existing solutions and techniques to solve the problem and make changes if required. Besides with a good planning.
|
| 14:23 : j605 |
!
|
| 14:23 : ntoll_ |
However, it turns out that making software is nothing like making bridges. Rather, it's more like writing a newspaper... there's lots of new information coming in all the time, the situation is changing fast, we need to be able to make changes to content very quickly... that sort of thing
|
| 14:23 : |
Agile is just a set of techniques that try to help make this happen.
|
| 14:24 : pooja |
!
|
| 14:24 : ntoll_ |
priyankasaggu119, yes... be brave and experiment. Show respect to your collaborators and make sure you put your users at the centre of all the things you do.
|
| 14:24 : priyankasaggu119 |
so, yeah i got the point very well, ntoll_ :)
|
| 14:24 : ntoll_ |
next
|
| 14:24 : |
:-)
|
| 14:24 : mzeeqazi |
ntoll_, any advice for beginners who want to write production level code. What things to adopt, what to left?
|
| 14:25 : ntoll_ |
hmmm... it takes time. Find a helpful mentor who can guide you and look over your code. Ensure you get your code reviewed and make sure there are tests and docs too.
|
| 14:26 : jeet__ |
!
|
| 14:26 : schubisu[m] |
!
|
| 14:26 : ntoll_ |
Also, perhaps most importantly, make sure you understand that people are reviewing and critiquing your code, and not you. A good code review is a positive experience even if the code ends up getting thrown away.
|
| 14:26 : sourabh1031 |
!
|
| 14:27 : ntoll_ |
hope this help!
|
| 14:27 : |
next
|
| 14:27 : kvy |
!
|
| 14:27 : ntoll_ |
sakshi, ???
|
| 14:27 : |
5
|
| 14:27 : |
4
|
| 14:27 : |
3
|
| 14:27 : |
2
|
| 14:27 : |
1
|
| 14:27 : |
next
|
| 14:27 : jaydeep |
ntoll_, I read on LinkedIn about your two startups and your contribution to the Python programming aspects of the BBC micro:bit, could you please share your experience about it? :-)
|
| 14:28 : ntoll_ |
Heh.. OK... so there's such a lot to tell, but I'll be brief:
|
| 14:29 : |
Startups: they mostly fail. However, they're also a LOT of fun. Make sure your startup is working on a problem you care about. Also, start-ups require you to take the initiative. If in doubt, just do something (anything!) and then learn from your mistakes, adapt, repeat and see how far you get. In my case, the two start-ups I was involved in all ran out of money before we could get enough customers to make them sustainable.
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| 14:30 : jaydeep |
ntoll_, on what problems were you working?
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| 14:32 : kps__ |
!
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| 14:32 : kushal |
ah, network issue I think
|
| 14:32 : ntoll |
hi
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| 14:32 : kushal |
ntoll, welcome back
|
| 14:33 : ntoll |
sorry... my internet went down again... :-/
|
| 14:33 : |
anyway... as i was saying...
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| 14:33 : |
BBC micro:bit... hmm... so I quickly learned that BBC doesn't stand for British Broadcasting Corporation, but instead means Big Bureaucratic Corporation. ;-)
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| 14:33 : priyankasaggu119 |
!
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| 14:34 : ntoll |
It was rather a painful project to be a part of since the Python stuff was basically me and Damien, and everything else was being done by big corporations like Microsoft and ARM.
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| 14:34 : |
Damien = creator of MicroPython
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| 14:34 : |
but we got through it and it seems like the folks at Adafruit have seen what an opportunity there is in this space and they're creating all sorts of amazing boards that run CircuitPython (their version of MicroPython)
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| 14:35 : j605 |
checked your talk on Pycon and found it really good. 1. What feedback have you received on the second iteration of Mu? 2. At what age do you think programming has to introduced at school or at home?
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| 14:35 : |
sorry :(
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| 14:35 : ntoll |
My advice would be to go for it if you've an opportunity to do a start up. However, it'll be the scariest thing and the most hard work you ever do. (But it's worth it)
|
| 14:36 : |
ok.
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| 14:36 : |
next
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| 14:36 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll, How to contribute to such great projects like Fedora,Python,Mozilla etc. Their code base seems so large and very tough to understand.Their READMEs also seem very complex.
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| 14:36 : ntoll |
j605, I'll answer when your turn comes up... OK :-)
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| 14:36 : |
sidntrivedi012, that's a really great question.
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| 14:37 : jaydeep |
ntoll, Thanks for sharing your start up story and your experiences! Much more respect :-)
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| 14:37 : rishibit |
jeer
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| 14:37 : |
sorry
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| 14:38 : ntoll |
If they're a good project (like Python) they'll have an onboarding process for new contributors... kushal knows all about that. I personally would take a look at the issue tracker and try to find an easy looking one to fix. I'd politely ask questions and make sure I read around the problem before submitting anything.
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| 14:38 : |
Another great way to become involved is by helping to write the documentation... taht's often a really good way to get a feel for the processes involved with a project while actually reading all the docs about it too..! :-)
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| 14:39 : |
If you find the project is unfriendly, then find another project. happily, there are plenty in the Python world that are friendly.
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| 14:39 : |
hope this helps!
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| 14:39 : |
next
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| 14:39 : vara1 |
ntoll, well taking into consideration the empathy thing, what is more important being practical or giving more weightage to morals and ethics while working in a team?...i know the obvious and ideal solution would be to maintain a balance between the two but my question is, to keep things more stable, on which side of the spectrum should one be more inclined towards?
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| 14:39 : sidntrivedi012 |
ntoll, thanks a lot.
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| 14:40 : ntoll |
vara1, what's the point of solving a problem if it is unethical to do so..? ;-)
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| 14:41 : vara1 |
maybe to gain some profit...
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| 14:42 : |
something which is more suitable for the progress of the team but not considerate towards some core team member's situation
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| 14:42 : ntoll |
is profit more important than ethics? (What I mean is, imagine you're on your death-bed and you look back on your life, what's the best thing to be thinking, "I've had a good life" or "I've had a profitable life"..?) ;-)
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| 14:43 : vara1 |
first option
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| 14:43 : ntoll |
In the end, no amount of money will stop death. But death won't be so painful if you have lived a life full of friends, love and other good stuff.
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| 14:44 : |
quite... so I guess we could talk about your duty as an engineer... and we're seeing this at the moment in Silicon Valley.
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| 14:44 : |
Microsoft and Google have recently been in the news because of a bunch of their engineers complaining about the military and border-patrol related technology they've been asked to work on.
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| 14:45 : |
I say "good for them". It's important to speak up to and challenge power when, perhaps because of the unintended consequences of the bureaucratic ways in which big organisations work, something ethically problematic is happening.
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| 14:46 : |
You must remember, as professional software developers (or once you folks have picked up these skills) you'll be joining a group of people with some of the most sought after skills in the world. If you don't like where you work, it should be quite easy to move and find another job.
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| 14:47 : |
vara1, does that help..? ultimately, you're an autonomous person, responsible for your actions... so it's up to you. :-) (and best of luck too!)
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| 14:47 : |
next
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| 14:47 : vara1 |
ok...thanks for your opinion ntoll :)
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| 14:47 : j605 |
checked your talk on Pycon and found it really good. 1. What feedback have you received on the second iteration of Mu? 2. At what age do you think programming has to introduced at school or at home?
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| 14:48 : vara1 |
thanks ntoll:) it did help..would you mind if i add a subpart to my question?
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| 14:48 : ntoll |
1. the feedback so far has been positive. The danger is that we over-complicate Mu as people ask/want more features. I have a plan to stop this happening. This sort of thing takes time and plenty of experimentation to make sure we build the right thing.
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| 14:50 : |
2. It's not *age* but *stage* that matters with programming. If a kid is at the right stage (no matter their age) then they should be given the opportunity to learn to code. If that's at school, great, but if school doesn't have the resources, then home is just as good. How do you know they're at the right stage..? My guess is they'll tell you via their interest in computers. ;-)
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| 14:50 : ananyo |
Thanks ntoll for today's session. I will be leaving now. Have some work now.
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| 14:50 : ntoll |
vara1, sure... just add yourself to the question queue. ;-)
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| 14:50 : |
ananyo, have fun!
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| 14:50 : |
next
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| 14:50 : vara1 |
ok, ntoll :)
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| 14:50 : |
!
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| 14:51 : ntoll |
5
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| 14:51 : |
4
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| 14:51 : |
3
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| 14:51 : |
2
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| 14:51 : |
1
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| 14:51 : |
next
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| 14:51 : jeet___ |
Some say, "everyone/anyone can code"! What is your take on the statement? ntoll
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| 14:51 : ntoll |
It depends.
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| 14:52 : schubisu[m] |
Hi ntoll, sorry my question was quite similar to j605s. I saw your PyCon talk on Mu. Do you have recommendations on how and when to expose children to a programming language? (I'm having that discussion with my wife about our 5 year old son ;) ) but the answer was already great, thanks ;)
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| 14:53 : ntoll |
It's a bit like music. Everyone/anyone can code and/or play music. However, our ears tell us some people are better musicians than others. I guess the same is the case with code. Everyone *could* write code, but some people won't enjoy it, find it painful or simply get the wrong end of the stick and create more problems than they solve with their code.
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| 14:53 : |
If a person doesn't enjoy coding, you shouldn't force them to do it (at school for example).
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| 14:54 : pdas |
!
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| 14:54 : ntoll |
Does that answer your question..?
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| 14:54 : jeet___ |
Wonderful answer ntoll
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| 14:54 : ntoll |
:-)
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| 14:54 : |
next
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| 14:54 : |
OK... you've already asked schubisu[m]
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| 14:54 : schubisu[m] |
Yep, soory, huge lag
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| 14:54 : philomath |
batul is a bot
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| 14:55 : ntoll |
schubisu[m], when my kids were 5yo they were playing around with Scratch... go check it out, it's awesome :-)
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| 14:55 : |
next
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| 14:56 : |
sourabh1031, ????
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| 14:56 : |
5
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| 14:56 : sourabh1031 |
I have seen on various projects that one needs to write tests for code he or she has written so i want to ask what is meant by that and how to write such and also explain unit testing
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| 14:56 : ntoll |
great question...
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| 14:56 : |
well done for beating the countdown too... ;-)
|
| 14:57 : |
tests fulfil several purposes:
|
| 14:57 : |
* They check the code we write is working how we expect (always a good thing to know)
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| 14:57 : |
* They provide examples for others about how to use our code.
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| 14:57 : siddharth |
!
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| 14:57 : ntoll |
* They quickly give us confidence that nothing is broken (running the test suite should take seconds)
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| 14:58 : |
* Most importantly, they allow us to make changes with confidence. If I update feature X, then run the test suite, I know I've not inadvertently broken anything else... ;-)
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| 14:58 : |
(and I break things all the time)
|
| 14:59 : |
As for explaining unit testing... that's a BIG question. My suggestion is you get your instructors to run a class on it since you'll learn much more that way, than via any short answer I may give.
|
| 14:59 : |
hope this helps!
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| 14:59 : |
next
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| 14:59 : kvy |
ntoll, answered above, I have same question as jeet___. :)
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| 15:00 : |
thanks
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| 15:00 : sourabh1031 |
Thanks ntoll
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| 15:00 : anwesha |
!
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| 15:00 : ntoll |
next
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| 15:00 : kps_ |
does being a good programmer, in addition to the things you mentioned, also imply that i can think of code to write with the same fluency as i can say my mother tounge?
|
| 15:01 : ntoll |
kps_, hmmm... that's an interesting question
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| 15:01 : siddharth |
!
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| 15:01 : ntoll |
I think you certainly think more fluently (if that's even the right word) around a coding problem, as you gain more experience. But like I said above, this comes with time and an open mind.
|
| 15:02 : rohan_h |
!
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| 15:02 : ntoll |
But that's like saying, you swim more fluently if you practice more... ;-)
|
| 15:02 : kps_ |
ntoll nice point
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| 15:02 : ntoll |
ok....
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| 15:02 : |
next
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| 15:02 : sourabh1031 |
ntoll do we need to have any knowledge of selenium or such to write test cases? If no then how
|
| 15:02 : priyankasaggu119 |
Sometimes, like when we are designing some software, and our main focus is on solving the problems first rather than on the coding part. So my main question is like is it fine to take some existing codebase as the boiler plate code, then working on that and modifying it in order to solve the problem efficiently? Would this practice be appreciated?
|
| 15:03 : ntoll |
sourabh1031, your question is out of turn... (sorry)
|
| 15:03 : cypher_ |
!
|
| 15:03 : ntoll |
priyankasaggu119, good questions
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| 15:04 : sourabh1031 |
!
|
| 15:04 : ntoll |
for me, it's important to solve the problem at hand. However, if you're a good developer, once you understand what the problem is, your first thought should be "surely someone else has solved something else like this?" and go look for other examples that you may be able to change to suit your own problem.
|
| 15:05 : |
Note how understanding the problem comes before looking up another's solution.
|
| 15:05 : |
There's a danger that if you jump in too early you'll only solve one aspect of the wider problem and make it difficult for the rest of the solution to emerge because you settled on this other solution from someone else too soon.
|
| 15:06 : |
I hope that makes sense... basically, try to learn as much about the problem, if possible DO NOT re-invent the wheel.. ;-) But if the wheel you borrowed turns out to be square, then be prepared to throw it away. ;-)
|
| 15:06 : |
next
|
| 15:06 : vara1 |
what would you do as the CEO of a company if all your employees go on a strike to get their salaries raised but the company is already in loss, ain't got that much funds to promote the employees for a certain period of time and the work is at stake because of this?
|
| 15:07 : priyankasaggu119 |
yeah, ntoll , it helped.
|
| 15:08 : ntoll |
vara1, that's a hypothetical question so hard to answer with specifics. however, I'd be honest and up-front. If the employees go on strike for more money when there is none, then everyone loses. If, however, the employees are invested in the work of the company (they enjoy working there, see value in the work, feel like it's a positive working environmnet) then I'd hope they;d join me in trying to turn things around.
|
| 15:08 : |
next
|
| 15:08 : pdas |
whats the main difference between a average coder and a great one?
|
| 15:09 : ntoll |
pdas, that assumes you can measure greatness... ;-)
|
| 15:10 : siddharth |
I learned multiple language as part of my university syllabus like C ,C++,Java, Python ,HTML, CSS. But I never worked in any project.Now I am in last year of my college and placement drives are over the head .I don't have any project to show in my resume. I really want to work on some project from scratch so that I can learn. I want your expert advice on my this matter.
|
| 15:10 : vara1 |
fair enough, ntoll. Thanks again :)
|
| 15:10 : ntoll |
I don't think it a quantitative thing (like average). Rather, it's more a case of what virtues or attributes make a great coder.
|
| 15:10 : jasonbraganza |
!
|
| 15:10 : pdas |
nice one,ntoll:)
|
| 15:10 : ntoll |
I'd say one, in particular stands out for me: that person helps makes others great too.
|
| 15:11 : |
next
|
| 15:11 : siddharth |
I learned multiple language as part of my university syllabus like C ,C++,Java, Python ,HTML, CSS. But I never worked in any project.Now I am in last year of my college and placement drives are over the head .I don't have any project to show in my resume. I really want to work on some project from scratch so that I can learn. I want your expert advice on my this matter.
|
| 15:12 : |
I have just 6 months to work on myself.
|
| 15:12 : ntoll |
siddharth, what do you love (outside computing). Try to find a problem related to that and make a project around it. For example, a website about something you enjoy... or a service or API for fans of something or other.
|
| 15:13 : |
e.g. a cricket API containing data about players, their averages, teams and so on.
|
| 15:13 : siddharth |
I always get ideas but I get trouble how to start the project.
|
| 15:14 : ntoll |
or perhaps there's some sort of data that's really valuable but badly presented (e.g. from the government). Perhaps you could scrape the data and make it easier to use..?
|
| 15:15 : |
siddharth, in that case (how to start), just do something (anything!) -- like I said when I answered about working at a start-up. If you do something then you have something you can test/check/poke with a stick. Work out how you might improve and re-iterate. Before you know it, you'll have a project. ;-) But... only YOU can take that first step.
|
| 15:15 : |
best of luck!
|
| 15:15 : |
next
|
| 15:15 : anwesha |
What is the deifference between an adovocate and developer advocate? Suppose I am a developer advocate, people would expect to me use, have faith in the technology,
|
| 15:15 : |
even in my personal space. But as an Advocate no one would expect me to follow the same advice as I gave to my client. So as a developer adovacate how would one seperate herself form the job?
|
| 15:16 : siddharth |
ntoll, Thanks
|
| 15:17 : ntoll |
anwesha, I think a developer advocate probably should use the code they're advocating. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I've understood the question.
|
| 15:18 : |
e.g. a Google developer advocate should probably use Google products. It wouldn't look good if they used Amazon or Microsoft for cloud hosting instead, right...?
|
| 15:18 : |
Also, as a legal advocate, your client's needs are different to your own. Whereas, if you're a developer advocate, you're also a developer (I hope)
|
| 15:18 : |
does this make sense???
|
| 15:19 : anwesha |
ntoll, yes thank you
|
| 15:19 : ntoll |
Folks, I have about 15 minutes left, so I'm going to try to get through as many questions as I can... apologies for the speedy and sometime brevity or the responses... :-)
|
| 15:19 : |
next
|
| 15:19 : rohan_h |
ntoll, I was checking your CV and one particluar project that interested me is drogulus. Currently I am just familiar with the technologies used in Distribituted Systems and have a basic idea how they work. Can you give me some pointers, on how to expand my knowledge such that I can contribute to projects like drogulus ? A brief roadmap will do. Thanks !
|
| 15:21 : ntoll |
Hmmm... If I were you, I'd Google for things. I'm not trying to duck out of an answer here... rather, it is an extraordinarily useful skill to be able to interrogate Google and work out which answers are the ones to follow.
|
| 15:22 : |
There will also be courses online. KhanAcademy Coursera etc... that sort of thing. Also, I suspect O'Reilly have books about this sort of thing
|
| 15:22 : |
next
|
| 15:22 : cypher_ |
ntoll: , kushal: As per your experience what should we pursue? The skills we are truly good at or the things we want to do (where our interest lies).
|
| 15:23 : rohan_h |
ntoll, Completely understand, but the resources are not very organized or beginner friendly, as compared to say ML. Thanks anyway !
|
| 15:23 : ntoll |
cypher_, try to make them align (if they don't already). ;-) E.g. if you're amazing at writing docs but want to do neural networks... write docs for neural network projects and see where that gets you... ;-)
|
| 15:23 : |
rohan_h, check out redecentralize.org
|
| 15:24 : |
lots of projects to investigate there...
|
| 15:24 : |
anyway...
|
| 15:24 : |
next
|
| 15:24 : sourabh1031 |
ntoll do we need have knowledge of selenium or such to write test cases . If answer to above is no then how should we do that ? explain unit testing also
|
| 15:24 : ntoll |
1. No. 2. Use another testing framework. 3. That's impossible to do in 15 minutes. Ask kushal to run a class on it as part of dgplug summer training. :-)
|
| 15:25 : |
next
|
| 15:25 : ghubale |
ntoll, Had to leave, thank you for the session :)
|
| 15:25 : ntoll |
ghubale, o/
|
| 15:25 : jasonbraganza |
Please describe … in detail … the linguistic yak shaving that led to मेहनती जुगाडू in your profile :)
|
| 15:25 : ntoll |
hahahaha
|
| 15:26 : |
1 I'm in the middle of thinking about i18n for Mu. Hence I got thinking about how some of our shared terms (in English as developers) might be translated into other cultures.
|
| 15:26 : |
2. I Googled "Indian hacks"
|
| 15:27 : |
3. You really don't want to know what came back... but plenty of pictures of weird contraptions
|
| 15:27 : jasonbraganza |
:P
|
| 15:28 : ntoll |
4. I noticed jugaad etc... as terms used
|
| 15:28 : |
5. This led down another interesting rabbit hole and my original tweet.
|
| 15:29 : |
6. Nick C. thought it must have something to do with Kushal (I don't know what that says about Nick's opinion of Kushal) :-P
|
| 15:30 : jasonbraganza |
oh kushal is a jugaadu in the best sense of the word
|
| 15:30 : ntoll |
7. I end up explaining to Nick that it has NOTHING to do with Kushal, and commenting that a British bloke explaining Indian terms for "hacks" to an Australian is an epic shaving of yaks.
|
| 15:30 : |
is that ^^^ detail enough... ;-)
|
| 15:30 : jasonbraganza |
fascinating train of thought ntoll :) thank you
|
| 15:30 : |
can always bug you later :)
|
| 15:31 : ntoll |
I look forward to it!
|
| 15:31 : |
next
|
| 15:31 : |
hurrah
|
| 15:31 : |
perfect timing too!
|
| 15:31 : bhavin192 |
ntoll, :)
|
| 15:31 : vshuklajr |
ntoll: that's a funny bit
|
| 15:32 : ntoll |
Folks, it has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for such interesting questions. I hope my answers made sense and were helpful.
|
| 15:32 : kps_ |
thank you so much for the wonderful session ntoll
|
| 15:32 : kushal |
ntoll, Thank you :)
|
| 15:32 : devesh_verma |
ntoll: thankyou for such a session. :) learnt alot many things today.
|
| 15:32 : newrg |
ntoll: thanks for the session,really informative,hope to hear from you again.
|
| 15:32 : ntoll |
Finally, best of luck with your studies!
|
| 15:32 : prabhu |
ntoll, Thanks a lot for giving us your valuable time and information.
|
| 15:32 : VirtualRcoder |
thank you ,ntoll
|
| 15:32 : RatanShreshtha |
ntoll: thanks
|
| 15:32 : pradhvan |
ntoll: thanks for the session
|
| 15:32 : sourabh1031 |
Thanks
|
| 15:32 : man-jain |
Thanks ntoll for the great session.
|
| 15:32 : siddharth |
Thanks.
|
| 15:32 : prokbird |
thanks for the session, ntoll
|
| 15:32 : vshuklajr |
ntoll: Thanks for this amazing session
|
| 15:32 : GeekyShacklebolt |
ntoll, thank you.
|
| 15:32 : pdas |
thanks,ntoll
|
| 15:32 : kushal |
I will end the session now, but participants please stay back for some more discussion.
|
| 15:33 : priyankasaggu119 |
Thanka alot ntoll. For all your time and knowledge.
|
| 15:33 : jaydeep |
ntoll, Thank you so much for this wonderful session, and taking out your time! :)
|